Here’s another hint - all ideological subdivisions of anarchism are masturbatory fantasies at best, because there will always be people who will refuse to accede to them and there will never be mechanisms to force their compliance.
As long as you’re not creating a new state, systems of domination, hierarchies, etc., then go do what you want. Anarcho-collectivism (or -communism, or -syndicalism, or mutualism) doesn’t mean imposing those frameworks of anarchist organization on the proletariat and the ecology; it just means we have a viewpoint on which mode(s) of organization have the best chance of achieving liberation.
There are really only two broad options - whatever people make up an anarchistic society will make whatever choices they make for whatever reasosns they make them, and enough of them will be conscious enough of the need to compromise to do so, and they’ll end up with a more or less stable society that might be hastily generalized in some broad and necessarily inaccurate ways, or anarchism will fail.
One of the many ways by which anarchism could fail is by ideologues digging their heels in and refusing to compromise on any of the dogma stipulated by the label to which they’ve sworn allegiance.
There are really only two broad options - whatever people make up an anarchistic society will make whatever choices they make for whatever reasosns they make them, and enough of them will be conscious enough of the need to compromise to do so, and they’ll end up with a more or less stable society that might be hastily generalized in some broad and necessarily inaccurate ways
This… sounds like anarchism succeeding. IMO, being an anarcho-communist (or whatever) is trying to persuade people to use anarchist communism (or whatever) as the framework to make better choices “for whatever reasons they make them”, because we think that this is a good framework for reasoning about an uncertain world. But if you want to think differently about anarchism, that’s completely fine, welcome even. Diversity is strength. But that doesn’t mean I’m gonna stop passionately advocating for what I think is right.
One of the many ways by which anarchism could fail is by ideologues digging their heels in and refusing to compromise on any of the dogma stipulated by the label to which they’ve sworn allegiance.
All forms of anarchism organize on the basis of free association. Again, dissatisfied parties can freely disassociate and go do their own thing. Or, they can reach a compromise. Either outcome is not a failure of anarchism.
persuade people to use anarchist communism (or whatever) as the framework to make better choices
The presumption that other people’s choices are subject to your approval is the exact foundation upon which authoritarianism is built.
It’s just a simple step from “you should convinced to do this” to “you should be compelled to do this.”
Not to mention, it’s incredibly arrogant, dismissive and disrespectful.
All forms of anarchism organize on the basis of free association.
No - not really. Anarchism does (or as I’ve come to refer to it - anarcho-anarchism), but the various ideological subdivisions actually don’t.
Again, dissatisfied parties can freely disassociate and go do their own thing.
In the first place, your conception of disassociation (and the conception common to ideological proto-anarchisms) only goes one way. You treat your collective as an entity unto itself, and cover the “free association” requirement by essentially stating that those who don’t wish to submit to the dictates of your ideology would be free to leave.
Which is a freedom the majority of the world already possesses, so rather obviously it doesn’t ensure or even imply anarchism.
And beyond that, more pointedly but less obviously, ideological collectives (as yours does) always carry with them an unstated presumption that the entity from which people would be free to disassociate would rightfully hold some property. That’s always there, lurking inder the surface, and generally comes out in little slips like saying that people would be free to “leave” or to “go.”
So you’re actually, already, envisioning an entity that would nominally rightfully govern a particular piece of property and would establish the norms that are expected of those who live there.
And to go all the way back that’s a lot of why I say ideological proto-anarchism is a masturbatory fantasy at best Dream all you want, but there is no way that such a thing could actually be implemented without empowering somebody to decree what specific norms will be in place, designating some particular borders within which those norms would be the only accepted ones, and most likely empowering someone to see to it that the norms are not violated, and that those who do violate them “freely” go somewhere else.
The first requirement for successful anarchism is people taking control of and responsibility for their own decisions and ceding the exact same control and responsibility to everyone else. As long as people continue to believe that they can and should have some say over other people’s decisions, anarchism will fail.
It’s just a simple step from “you should convinced to do this” to “you should be compelled to do this.”
It’s actually a huge step, actually. It’s like… the whole thing. It’s “here’s why it would be neat if you consented to this, but you can do something else if you like” versus “do it lol”.
Which is a freedom the majority of the world already possesses, so rather obviously it doesn’t ensure or even imply anarchism.
Privilege spotted. The majority of the world absolutely does NOT have freedom of association, even de jure.
And beyond that, more pointedly but less obviously, ideological collectives (as yours does) always carry with them an unstated presumption that the entity from which people would be free to disassociate would rightfully hold some property.
No they don’t, you’re imagining that. E.g., you can have multiple distinct anarchist collectives in the same area.
So you’re actually, already, envisioning an entity that would … establish the norms that are expected of those who live there.
1000% yes. If you join a chess club started by me, you can’t shit on the chessboards. You are free to start a chess club where shitting on the chessboards is allowed/encouraged. Establishing norms is not necessarily a system of domination or hierarchy.
As long as people continue to believe that they can and should have some say over other people’s decisions, anarchism will fail.
If someone decides to rape me, I am wrecking their shit. That’s a bad decision and I’m not gonna respect it at all. It’s not authoritarian to make and act on that judgment call. Obviously, this is perfectly in line with anarchist theory and praxis.
There are plenty of less extreme examples where someone’s decisions will harm someone else, e.g. insert an example from almost any undergraduate ethics textbook.
I gotta be so real with you: you seem like you want to do anarchism with the seriousness and care it deserves, but I suspect you’re trying to do a “clean room design” of anarchist principles. Please just do the reading. Anarchist literature is informed by generations of praxis and mistakes that you have no way of accumulating in a “clean room” within a single lifetime. There are even anarchists who make your arguments a lot more convincingly than you’re doing.
Anarchy is individual and collective. Individuals are free to associate. Collectives of individuals work together because “apes strong together”. Hierarchies are horizontal. Violence is decentralized.
Anarcho-collectivists: *continues existing*
Here’s another hint - all ideological subdivisions of anarchism are masturbatory fantasies at best, because there will always be people who will refuse to accede to them and there will never be mechanisms to force their compliance.
As long as you’re not creating a new state, systems of domination, hierarchies, etc., then go do what you want. Anarcho-collectivism (or -communism, or -syndicalism, or mutualism) doesn’t mean imposing those frameworks of anarchist organization on the proletariat and the ecology; it just means we have a viewpoint on which mode(s) of organization have the best chance of achieving liberation.
Right - it’s a masturbatory fantasy.
There are really only two broad options - whatever people make up an anarchistic society will make whatever choices they make for whatever reasosns they make them, and enough of them will be conscious enough of the need to compromise to do so, and they’ll end up with a more or less stable society that might be hastily generalized in some broad and necessarily inaccurate ways, or anarchism will fail.
One of the many ways by which anarchism could fail is by ideologues digging their heels in and refusing to compromise on any of the dogma stipulated by the label to which they’ve sworn allegiance.
This… sounds like anarchism succeeding. IMO, being an anarcho-communist (or whatever) is trying to persuade people to use anarchist communism (or whatever) as the framework to make better choices “for whatever reasons they make them”, because we think that this is a good framework for reasoning about an uncertain world. But if you want to think differently about anarchism, that’s completely fine, welcome even. Diversity is strength. But that doesn’t mean I’m gonna stop passionately advocating for what I think is right.
All forms of anarchism organize on the basis of free association. Again, dissatisfied parties can freely disassociate and go do their own thing. Or, they can reach a compromise. Either outcome is not a failure of anarchism.
The presumption that other people’s choices are subject to your approval is the exact foundation upon which authoritarianism is built.
It’s just a simple step from “you should convinced to do this” to “you should be compelled to do this.”
Not to mention, it’s incredibly arrogant, dismissive and disrespectful.
No - not really. Anarchism does (or as I’ve come to refer to it - anarcho-anarchism), but the various ideological subdivisions actually don’t.
In the first place, your conception of disassociation (and the conception common to ideological proto-anarchisms) only goes one way. You treat your collective as an entity unto itself, and cover the “free association” requirement by essentially stating that those who don’t wish to submit to the dictates of your ideology would be free to leave.
Which is a freedom the majority of the world already possesses, so rather obviously it doesn’t ensure or even imply anarchism.
And beyond that, more pointedly but less obviously, ideological collectives (as yours does) always carry with them an unstated presumption that the entity from which people would be free to disassociate would rightfully hold some property. That’s always there, lurking inder the surface, and generally comes out in little slips like saying that people would be free to “leave” or to “go.”
So you’re actually, already, envisioning an entity that would nominally rightfully govern a particular piece of property and would establish the norms that are expected of those who live there.
And to go all the way back that’s a lot of why I say ideological proto-anarchism is a masturbatory fantasy at best Dream all you want, but there is no way that such a thing could actually be implemented without empowering somebody to decree what specific norms will be in place, designating some particular borders within which those norms would be the only accepted ones, and most likely empowering someone to see to it that the norms are not violated, and that those who do violate them “freely” go somewhere else.
The first requirement for successful anarchism is people taking control of and responsibility for their own decisions and ceding the exact same control and responsibility to everyone else. As long as people continue to believe that they can and should have some say over other people’s decisions, anarchism will fail.
It’s actually a huge step, actually. It’s like… the whole thing. It’s “here’s why it would be neat if you consented to this, but you can do something else if you like” versus “do it lol”.
Privilege spotted. The majority of the world absolutely does NOT have freedom of association, even de jure.
No they don’t, you’re imagining that. E.g., you can have multiple distinct anarchist collectives in the same area.
1000% yes. If you join a chess club started by me, you can’t shit on the chessboards. You are free to start a chess club where shitting on the chessboards is allowed/encouraged. Establishing norms is not necessarily a system of domination or hierarchy.
If someone decides to rape me, I am wrecking their shit. That’s a bad decision and I’m not gonna respect it at all. It’s not authoritarian to make and act on that judgment call. Obviously, this is perfectly in line with anarchist theory and praxis.
There are plenty of less extreme examples where someone’s decisions will harm someone else, e.g. insert an example from almost any undergraduate ethics textbook.
I gotta be so real with you: you seem like you want to do anarchism with the seriousness and care it deserves, but I suspect you’re trying to do a “clean room design” of anarchist principles. Please just do the reading. Anarchist literature is informed by generations of praxis and mistakes that you have no way of accumulating in a “clean room” within a single lifetime. There are even anarchists who make your arguments a lot more convincingly than you’re doing.
Never met a “no true Scotsman” anarchist.
Anarchy is individual and collective. Individuals are free to associate. Collectives of individuals work together because “apes strong together”. Hierarchies are horizontal. Violence is decentralized.